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Alt 16.03.2003, 16:49   #31
Valerian
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Zitat:
Original geschrieben von miromi

it was interesting because she said being trilingual is normal in east Asia but it doesn#t have the same association with intelligence and upper classedness that it does in the west.
no..its not just the outside world-perception that associates multilinguality with intelligence, -its proven thru developmental psychology studies that growing up bilingually improves linguistic competence and therefore intelligence (wherein linguistic abilities are one factor, just like capabilities of formal-logic thinking).

I know from friends, who grew up bilingually that they have less difficulties learning any new language...

Studies of tri-lingual development testify a kind of confusion within the development of grammar rules and the ability to distinct the vocabulary sets from the individual languages, which is then a negative factor for development of linguistic skills.


Just the 10cent from a psychologist who is also a drumandbass dj...;-)
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Geändert von Valerian (16.03.2003 um 16:51 Uhr)
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Alt 17.03.2003, 08:06   #32
geek
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well that makes sense.

i can imagine it like this:
if you grow up bilingually and...let's say you're looking for a word. it can either be this...or that. you only have two options and if you put in the wrong word it HAS to be the other one. this means that you're learning to speak both languages fluently since you can't really get confused that easily...while if you're growing up trilingually and you're looking for a word you already have three options and i can imagine that this has to be confusing at some point. i think it might be that you automatically focus on one language while you get confused with the two others and you don't learn how to speak either of them properly.
so if you grow up with two languages and you speak both of them fluently i figure that it has to be a lot easier for you to learn a third language because you just take them one at a time...while people who grow up with three languages might not be able to learn a fourth one because they can't even speak the second and third one right.


just trying to explain that stuff to myself a bit.
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Alt 17.03.2003, 14:19   #33
jungle_nutcase
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Zitat:
Original geschrieben von Checker
I believe, this was meant to be a joke (if you were not kidding at us, anyway), as many Turkish people in Germany loves to start or end their sentences with "weisst Du" .
No way! It wasn't I'm sure...

A more sensical post will follow suit.
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Alt 17.03.2003, 21:39   #34
C-Wee
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Zitat:
Original geschrieben von miromi

but anyway, now we move on to jamaican or jamaican brit english. so like, reggae is feminine since it is reggae (-musik)

die reggae
die ragga

No, actually it would be "der ragga/raggae", because musical styles are masculin in german.
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Alt 17.03.2003, 23:32   #35
geek
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just like it's

der smartass.

j/k
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Alt 18.03.2003, 11:07   #36
miromi
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Zitat:
Original geschrieben von Valerian

Studies of tri-lingual development testify a kind of confusion within the development of grammar rules and the ability to distinct the vocabulary sets from the individual languages, which is then a negative factor for development of linguistic skills.
that's interesting! so what is the difference between a persion with a monolingual childhood + a person with a trilingual childhood? Do the trilingual people absorb more easily and then just have problems with grammar or do they become language-stupid the way monolingual childhood people do?

is there a crucial age limit, as in like, if you are 12 and grow up bilingual speakign Spanish and English then it's less of an impact when you study Chinese . or you learn from infancy to speak spanish english and chinese?

Geändert von miromi (18.03.2003 um 11:11 Uhr)
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Alt 18.03.2003, 11:08   #37
miromi
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Original geschrieben von C-Wee
No, actually it would be "der ragga/raggae", because musical styles are masculin in german.
a ok, then it's always

der Gabba
der Rap
der Hip Hop
der Trance

uzw
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Alt 18.03.2003, 13:46   #38
jungle_nutcase
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To be quite honest, it happens on a regular basis that I mix up English and German grammars, which is in part due to me reading plenty of English literature but also possibly due to the fact that I did grow up trilingually. However, having said that, Italian hardly ever enters my language. Maybe because I don't use it that often. I still think that there might be some truth in what Valerian says.
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Alt 18.03.2003, 20:25   #39
C-Wee
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just like it's

der smartass.

j/k
For shure... :bowsmily:
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Alt 18.03.2003, 21:32   #40
Valerian
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Zitat:
Original geschrieben von miromi
that's interesting! so what is the difference between a persion with a monolingual childhood + a person with a trilingual childhood? Do the trilingual people absorb more easily and then just have problems with grammar or do they become language-stupid the way monolingual childhood people do?
no its like that: in the sensitive phase in the development of a child, the brain develops a kind of basic understanding of grammar and the formal-logic relationship between words and meanings...we call this semantics. The human brain in that phase is smart enough to deal with two different formal systems (grammar) and vokabulary sets. We have to keep in mind that learning manifests in the creation of connections between cell assemblies and the training of these connections thru reinforcement of these connections. So when you got a basic knowledge (although this "knowledge is merely implicit than fully rational...its not that you rationally "understand" the grammar rules...you just use them correctly in an "unconscious" manner)..so if you know the basic grammar rules of two different languages, its easier for you to learn a third one, `cause your brain is trained to get along with the difficulties of different languages and you get behind the rules more easily. Like an phyiscal artist in a circus learns much easier new movements and stuff we would break our neck just because his body knows how to effectivly learn new movements and get the muscels togheter with the right time to jump for example.

There are "sensitive phases" for nearly everything...case studies of "wolf childs", -childs that grew up without anybody talking to them, show that these kids NEVER learned speaking anymore later.

So get this: in that sensitive phase you might get confused when there are three different languages around, `cause it take you more time to get behind the rules (when do i say that and when does it mean this or that)...so every single language is learned in a diabled manner, -kind of incomplete. So you never bring it to an expert level in one major language, which makes people don?t talk to you on a high level. Another point is that its just confusing to deal with three different vocabulary sets, resulting in a imperfect use of vocabels and a higher amount of time spent for searching the right words.

But psycholinguistics are not my major subject...so I don`t really know by heart. There are so many mediating factors, such as: what about two completly different language types, such as chinese and german or hungarian and innuit...could be fucking terrible or fucking cool to have a brain able to deal with both....imagine...
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Geändert von Valerian (18.03.2003 um 21:37 Uhr)
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Alt 20.03.2003, 12:32   #41
miromi
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Zitat:
Original geschrieben von Valerian
no its like that: in the sensitive phase in the development of a child, the brain develops a kind of basic understanding of grammar and the formal-logic relationship between words and meanings...we call this semantics. The human brain in that phase is smart enough to deal with two different formal systems (grammar) and vokabulary sets.
i am only an armchair linguist, i have never studied it formally, but in semantics, isn't the popular thinking nowadays that all languages are more or less universal and follow universal rules? wouldn't grammar and language rules somewhat superficial?
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Alt 20.03.2003, 12:48   #42
miromi
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Zitat:
Original geschrieben von Valerian
But psycholinguistics are not my major subject...so I don`t really know by heart. There are so many mediating factors, such as: what about two completly different language types, such as chinese and german or hungarian and innuit...could be fucking terrible or fucking cool to have a brain able to deal with both....imagine...
ya that would be phat! but you know, are there any studies of this online? I have done some googles + found some people complaining on linguistics mailing lists that sometimes trilingual children take longer to read. but i couldn't find much else.

also, there has to be a big difference between learning say flemish and german and then learning hungarian and nahuatl. or is there?

someone was telling me how chinese has no future or past tense, and some people think that changes a person's perception of time, but it really doesn't.

if that were true, then the fact that german uses present + future tense in the same verb form would say that i would be less aware of past and future as a native german speaker than as an english speaker, right? but that is really silly. of course german speakers have a perception of future and present.

also, aren'T all the rules rather irregular in most languages? english is the biggest offender, since it has borrowed from so many more sources compared to German. since in english almost no rules are constant, how would a child learning english develop an understanding of the rules wheen there are thousands of exceptions?
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Alt 20.03.2003, 18:07   #43
Turrican
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Original geschrieben von geek
brain-gulasch
only with nudles.... or nodles...
I´m going 2 lunch now...
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Alt 20.03.2003, 18:38   #44
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das vibrieren
die vibration
der vibrator

DAS vibration!!!!
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Alt 20.03.2003, 19:27   #45
Steppsen
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Zitat:
Original geschrieben von Valerian

So get this: in that sensitive phase you might get confused when there are three different languages around, `cause it take you more time to get behind the rules (when do i say that and when does it mean this or that)...so every single language is learned in a diabled manner, -kind of incomplete. So you never bring it to an expert level in one major language, which makes people don?t talk to you on a high level. Another point is that its just confusing to deal with three different vocabulary sets, resulting in a imperfect use of vocabels and a higher amount of time spent for searching the right words.

Interesting thread...never thought it could be more than shit cos of da headline...but what ya say is a really amazing sitiuation...imagine, there´s a point where ya get problems cos you learned too much vocabulary....but its logical at all...human brain ist a powerful tool but not an endless PC.

I had an teacher who studied English, Chinese and Russian language...I was deeply impresses by this guy...for me it´s hard to imagine that one could handle more than two languages...deep respect.
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